PS2 is not a computer, says Lord Justice [Update 1]
After a lengthy journey through legal loopholes and import tax laws, an English court has come to the conclusion that the PS2 is not, in fact, an "automatic data processing machine". This doesn't come as a revelation to Sony but rather, a crushing disappointment in a campaign that might have netted them a hefty 63 million dollars (or 50 million Euro). Had Sony's lawyerbots managed to
The Court of Appeal's heroically labeled Lord Justice Chadwick wasn't best pleased by Sony's "skeleton" arguments, noting that they went "beyond what can be regarded as acceptable written advocacy" and exceeded "the bounds of propriety." If there's anything we've learned over the years, it's that one should never cross a man who wields a tiny hammer. It simply isn't a VAIOble strategy. (Sorry.)
All of this comes on the heels of Ken Kutaragi's insistence that the PS3 is "clearly a computer." It's okay, Ken. You can drop the act now. European import tax on video game consoles dropped to zero percent in 2004.
[Update 1: Clarified our amusement at the "Lord Justice" label. Surely, he must be a superhero of some sorts.]
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
ipodfanboy @ Jun 20th 2006 10:22PM
wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. Well duh the ps2 was never a computer, ps2 could not do the things that a pc can do, ps2 is too outdated to be a computer eventhough there is linux os for the ps2 that gives it pc like functionality. Either way playstation will never replace pcs.
Invisible @ Jun 20th 2006 10:26PM
It is no suprise at all.
striderhayasa @ Jun 20th 2006 10:28PM
It's a shame that people actually bought into that sham. Terrorists stealing PS2s to launch missles...? Give me a break.
AndrewNeo @ Jun 20th 2006 10:41PM
Everyone should know just because it's not a PC doesn't mean it can't run Linux!
SonicRift @ Jun 20th 2006 10:47PM
Aptly named? Tell me I misunderstood that... Oh Joystiq... Say it ain't so...
Must be like all those kids named Doctor who decided to be pediatricians. Coincidence? Maybe. I mean, plenty of people named Doctor do other things with their lives, like teach physics at universities.
And I guess John M. Chief, after joining the Spartan II program, went by his middle name, Master.
Ludwig Kietzmann @ Jun 20th 2006 10:57PM
Sonicrift, that's meant to be a joke, following from the headline. I thought "Lord Justice" as a name on its own was too good to pass up. :) I shall clarify.
Spaz @ Jun 20th 2006 11:03PM
It's good to see that Joystiq is remaining impartial and without bias throughout this 3-way console war.
Night Elve @ Jun 20th 2006 11:11PM
Heh well those are pretty smart minds, they found what we know from the very beginning.
xD
SonicRift @ Jun 20th 2006 11:22PM
Haha, Ok, L.K.
Half one of my high school law classes didn't pick up on the fact that Justice was a title, not a name. Some of the girls, I remember, commented on how they were all named Justice to the teacher during class. It was quite a roffle mayo moment.
So I am readily sceptical.
But yeah... Kinda snake-like move from Sony. From the same minds that brought you the root kit, perhaps?
I've been a long time Sony supporter, pre-PlayStation, can't look around this room without seeing something made by them, but I'm really bothered by their arrogance as of late.
I'm enjoying it and all, but I think I impulse bought my 360 out of post-E3 spite.
boots @ Jun 20th 2006 11:45PM
PS2 is not a computer where you can use word and Excel, but it doesn't only play games, so it's an entertainment computer. So is Xbox, Xbox 360, PS3 and even Wii.
Judd @ Jun 21st 2006 12:12AM
I'm sorry, but isn't anything that you can put data into a computer. Yes the PS2 doesn't have a monitor or use Word but isn't any video game system technically a computer. Hell, a calculator is a computer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer
I'm not sure what the requirements were of the PS2 to recieve a tax refund but for a judge to define what a computer is, is like Roger Ebert defining art.
ill trooper @ Jun 21st 2006 12:17AM
The LISA! Hot!!! ANd 'Lord Justice' is his earned title in the British legal system, not a name given to him by his parents...
In regards to the legality of importing computers or not, MANY companies try this, not just Sony.
But really... All those acting like the PS2 hasne't been a good system: Who cares if someone thinks or doesn't think it's a computer? Did you not enjoy Gran Tourismo? DID YOU NOT enjoy Metal Gear Solid, Grand Theft Auto 3? Were you not amused by Katamari or SOCOM?
By the standards of a 1968 'COMPUTER' today's cellphones (or even cellphones from 10 years ago) can be called 'computers...'
People's HINDSIGHT vision is getting blurry... What were you doing these last 6 years?
zsavior @ Jun 21st 2006 1:46AM
Lord Justice Chadwick is obviously a 3 tier paladin, I seen him in World Of Warcraft he is on my server. I think the guy is like Grand Marshal and wields a GAWWWDLY LEGENDARY MACE! One consecration from this man and elites are on bended knee to him!
Nope I got nothing else to add than that he names sounds straight out of WOW.
Eric @ Jun 21st 2006 1:48AM
I don't want to get slammed for bringing this up, but I feel it is my duty amongst all of the laughable Sony crap nowadays...
Get the word "COMPUTER" out of all of your heads, that isn't what the "judge" said. He said the PS2 isn't an "automatic data processing machine".
The Hell it isn't! As was stated by another poster--a freakin every day calculator is an automatic data processing machine...you punch it numbers, the calculator processes that data...automatically!
Perhaps the argument is whether or not the PS2 is a "computer"---But from the above story, I read that a dumbass English judge that doesn't like to be called a dumbass says an obvious computing machine isn't because he holds the "tiny hammer."
Steven @ Jun 21st 2006 3:01AM
Sorry to be pendantic, but the judge was obviously interpreting the relevant Acts and regulations in such a way so as to follow Parliments/Government's intention. I'm pretty sure they didin't intend to give tax breaks to games consoles, fanboys ;)
As for mistaking his title for his name...ROTFL
Gareth @ Jun 21st 2006 4:43AM
> ps2 is too outdated to be a computer
So my ancient 486 isn't a computer either? I'm sure it will be surprised to hear that.
Derek @ Jun 21st 2006 5:12AM
OMG and all this time I thought it was! What a dissapointment! Wait a minute! Good thing the PS3 is COMPUTER, Right Ken K.? Phew! I was worried there for a minute! Now let me ditch this computer and wait for the PS3 to come out!
/sarcasm
niels @ Jun 21st 2006 5:33AM
I think the issue was about whether ps2 is a "freely programmable computer", or whether it is essentially a games machine, where you cannot modify the games...
Waccoon @ Jun 21st 2006 7:06AM
Game companies depend on content. They have to protect their IP and lock out all programmers except those that are "authorized". You get only what they provide you. The OS and hardware are tighly coupled. The CPUs lack sophistication required for "real-world" performance.
Personal computers are based on open standards. Hardware documentation is readily available. You can install any software you want. CPUs are tuned for generalized tasks. Flexible busses allow for better multitasking and error control.
You can force a console to do things like a PC, but it dosn't happen cheaply or efficiently.
Ki @ Jun 21st 2006 7:18AM
Its the ultimate tax-evasion law fighting championship, Komputeror Ken Kutarugi vs Lord Justice in the court of hell.
niels @ Jun 21st 2006 9:11AM
maybe sonys interest in pleasing the homebrew community by making the ps2 and 3 run linux really comes down to trying to get these tax brakes...
Eric @ Jun 21st 2006 9:12AM
The only way I see the PS3 being a computer is if I have to load games onto it, but make sure that my hardware and software is updated and compatible first...Then upgrade my graphics card to be able to play the latest and greatest games...upgrade my memory, the size of my hard drive, etc....and if that happens...later Sony.
32_Footsteps @ Jun 21st 2006 9:14AM
Steven - you mean they didn't mean to give tax breaks to consoles until 2004, according to the article.
I'd say how silly this is, but I live in the country that brought the world not only Nix v. Hedden (where the Supreme Court ruled that the tomato is a vegetable, not a fruit), and Toy Biz v. United States (where the Supreme Court ruled that action figures aren't dolls because they depict "nonhuman creatures").
Maybe the United Kingdom felt incensed that they weren't involved in any silly legal definition debates caused by laws with odd wording.
niels @ Jun 21st 2006 9:29AM
32 footsteps, no such silly legal cases only happen in america.
if you read the original ruling, the issue is not over whether ps2 is a "computer", which it is, but over whether it is a "freely programmable computer", which it is not.
when sony put yabasic on ps2 everyone thought it was because they were opening up their system for homebrew, but now it seems it was just for tax reasons...oh well...
32_Footsteps @ Jun 21st 2006 10:21AM
Actually, Niels, read up on those two cases. The parallels are striking.
In both of the cases I cited, the reason for the issue is that there were different tax rates on items in question. For Nix v. Hedden, items defined as "vegetables" were taxed less than items defined as "fruits". The Supreme Court thus defined a tomato as a vegetable strictly for the purpose of taxation due to how the tomato was typically used in food preparation. They even specifically stated that the ruling was strictly for tax purposes and not to be confused with a dictionary or botanical definition.
Toy Biz v. United States was similar. In that case, items defined as dolls (which are children's playthings that depict human figures) are taxed higher than items defined as toys (which are children's playthings that do not depict human figures). The irony is that Toy Biz (a subsidiary of Marvel Comics) argued that characters with inhuman powers fit under the definition of toys (since humans can't climb walls with their bare hands, use telepathic powers, safely immolate themselves at will, and so on), while a big part of the comic plots revolve around the characters asserting their humanity despite being rejected at times due to their powers. Toy Biz also prevailed in that on their reasoning.
Now, if you look at this case, it seems it's much the same. The law itself doesn't specifically define computer; the judge is the one who did that. If you go by the scientific definition, the PS2 is most definitely a computer, a very streamlined one customized for one very specific purpose. But for tax purposes, like in the two cases I cited, it's treated differently.
OMAC @ Jun 21st 2006 10:24AM
"I'm sorry, but isn't anything that you can put data into a computer. Yes the PS2 doesn't have a monitor or use Word but isn't any video game system technically a computer. Hell, a calculator is a computer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer
I'm not sure what the requirements were of the PS2 to recieve a tax refund but for a judge to define what a computer is, is like Roger Ebert defining art." - Judd
You are technically correct, but what you and many other people are missing is that the PS2 was never about productivity. It was about playing games, nothing else. Yes it can play DVDs and a gazillion other things, and yes you can put Linux on it and other neat geeky stuff, but Sony never marketed it as such. Where are the office applications? Where are the email utilities? No one walks in to a Best Buy and asks for the PS2 Spreadsheet software. It was marketed as a video game console, and therefore, subject to the tarrif or import duties. Sony is trying to weasel out of its obligations plain and simple.
The PS2, and all consoles, are computers, but they are not Personal Computers.
niels @ Jun 21st 2006 11:11AM
32 footsteps,
but it seems to me in both cases you cite the judge went for a rather controversial definition of a particular item, in the sense that a tomato could be a fruit or a vegetable under some mainstream definition.
in the current case the judge went for the non-controversial definition that the PS2 is not a personal computer, relying on the non-controversial definition of a personal computer pointed out here by other users such as OMAC and waccoon.
32_Footsteps @ Jun 21st 2006 11:46AM
Actually, read about those cases more fully and general public perception. The judges in each case actually went with the less controversial common usage even though a technical definition would argue otherwise.
Most people would call a tomato a vegetable based on where you use it when cooking (mostly main dishes, salads, and sauces). Most people would call it a vegetable. Science calls it a fruit, but that's about it.
Most people call articulated figures of super heroes to be action figures, because boys play with them and boys don't play with dolls. But let's be honest here - they're dolls, plain and simple. They're toy representations of characters for kids to play with. The only reason they're called action figures is because males of any age are embarassed by the word "doll".
Similarly, the PS2 isn't a computer because people don't call it that. They call it a console. The law in question didn't single out personal computers (and all that means is a computer that doesn't acces a mainframe shared by others). It's only a console because we typically don't want to call it a computer.
The only actual difference between the two US cases I cited and this one is that the common definition (which was upheld in each case over the technical definition) helped the plaintiffs in the two US cases but hurt the plaintiff in this case.
Gonzo @ Jun 21st 2006 1:30PM
I don't think too many people will think of the ps3 as a computer either.
Not unless you can load PC games onto it and you KNOW Sony will never let you use shareware on it. Those 2 functions would've sold me, the blue ray just made me laugh. You'd think they'd learn after the UMD BS.
GamerZero @ Jun 21st 2006 1:44PM
Hmm, so everything with a processor can be classed as a computer.So my car,washing machine,GPS,camcorder,mp3 player,etc are all computers that could run a knocked-up version of linux.I don't think so Sony....,your sneaky underhand tactics have bit you on the arse hahahaha!
MetaHuman @ Jun 21st 2006 4:44PM
If you aren't playing with someone else, you're usually playing the COMPUTER. Yes, all videogame systems are computers. However, PS3 probably still won't kill PCs like PSP couldn't kill iPod. They want you to put the thing in the center of your entertainment center. Usually, that isn't the proper place for full PC accessibility.
The ZeroCorpse @ Jun 21st 2006 11:31PM
I seem to remember back when we asked Sony to give us keyboard & mouse support, they responded "We don't want the PS2 to be a home computer. We want it to be clearly distinguished from your PC as a media console, so we will not implement keyboard/mouse controls on games."
Now all of a sudden, they say it's a computer!
Sony... Do you pay people to develop your lies, or is it part of the company handbook?